CHRISTOPHER SORAN: All right. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the January edition of our ctcLink Accessibility Forum. Appreciate your time coming today. We got to just cover a couple quick updates today. We'll go ahead and get rolling into it. Christopher Soran, application support manager here at the State Board. 

So we'll talk a little bit about Okta. We're also just continuing to work on services desk tickets with Oracle, on any issues we find. Yeah, so I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Vicki and Josh to talk about Okta testing they've been going through. 

JOSH: Good morning. My name is Josh [? Chi. ?] I'm a developer here at the SBCTC. And yeah, we've been doing some Okta verify testing. They've presented a couple updates, one being a new verified method called FastPass, which uses a desktop app that Okta has. So you won't have to use your mobile device to verify your second authentication. 

And they've also made some long awaited updates to the account settings page. Going through our testing, we did find a few issues that we'll be bringing up to Okta in our next meeting. And in our next I guess, ctcLink Accessibility Forum we will present the final documents for our testing. Is there anything else that you would like to add, Vicki? 

VICKI: Yeah, I just want to say that both Josh and I completed our testing in the time frame that we noted. But then we went back-- we had a meeting together to look at our results. And we noticed that the dashboard had been updated in the ctcLink US preview. So I started testing all over again so that I could have a-- because it still had the old look to it. And I found issues with that. 

So sometime during the time we're testing it was updated. Now both ctclink.us and sbctc.edu have the very, very same dashboard look. So it's easier now to compare which is a really nice feature, really. And apart from finding a few issues, it's a much cleaner navigation experience. And like Josh said, we'll share our findings at the next meeting. 

JOSH: Yeah, like Vicki was saying, actually, part of my documentation, I had said no changes made to the account settings page, even though we've been waiting for a long time. And then we had our meeting. And we're like, oh, they overhauled the whole account settings feature. So that was good news. But it didn't push back our finalized documentation. 

VICKI: And I just wanted to note that I did not find-- apart from the dashboard issues that were found, I didn't have any issues navigating the Okta verify app with voiceover on the iOS and the iPad OS. I did not do any testing on the FastPass because you can download the FastPass. But then you need to create a ticket to have the help desk install it for you because our computers are now a standard account. So I didn't finish with that one. 

JOSH: Yes, that's true. Fortunately, well, I just got a new computer. So I'll be losing the access to be able to do it. But the computer I have currently, I was able to download FastPass. And I did find a couple things wrong with it there. It wasn't showing the focus when you keep her navigated through the buttons. And I'll be presenting that to Okta. 

But besides that, I was able to navigate in-- it announced to the screen reader appropriately. You just weren't able to visibly see where the focus was at. But I was able to keyboard navigate through it. And the buttons all worked. And yeah, it'll be nice to have once it's all installed. That's it for me, Christopher. 

VICKI: Yep, that's it for me, too. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah, thanks. Thanks, John. I appreciate it. 

VICKI: Just let me just clarify to people how we do this just so they have some background. When we do these evaluations, I navigate the dashboard with JAWS in Chrome and Firefox, and then voiceover on an iOS in an iOS iPad. Josh navigates with NVDA on the dashboard and a Mac and an Android. So we get the full coverage of all the different screen readers that individuals could use. 

JOSH: Yeah, and if there's any questions, we're happy to answer them as well. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah. Very thorough testing-- every device type is covered. 

VICKI: Mhm. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah. I appreciate it. Has anyone had any reports, or negative experiences, or positive experiences around it? Oh, go ahead Rose. 

ROSE MADSON: Sorry, I've been recovering from a cold. I just had a question about that testing that you guys did. How long did that take you? I know that it sounded like you had to go back and start over. But initially, to do a test and complete a test like that, on average, how long does that take you? 

VICKI: I had to redo my testing. I spent most of the morning Monday redoing the test, so two, three hours, because you're navigating with a screen reader. And then, for me anyway, I'm copying the voice output for the issue that was found, and then documenting what's happening and the impact that it has, and then adding WCAG. compliant whatever. So yeah, if it's a big website, it takes a while. But for this, it took me two to three hours. 

ROSE MADSON: All right. Yeah, I was just curious just because the testing and the manual testing of content is becoming a larger conversation on our campus. And so as we move into this work, more manual testing is going to be really important that people take the time to do that. And I was just curious because I know they're going to ask me how much time is this going to take me. 

And some of it has to do with your proficiency. Like me, it's going to take me a little bit longer with using a assistive technology tool because I don't use them every day. So to simulate that action using that tool might take me a little bit longer than it might take you, until I become more proficient in using that tool, so. 

VICKI: Sure. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. 

JOSH: I would agree with that. And also, I think a lot of the time goes into setup of the test, like making sure that we have the right accounts and the right software installed. Like Vicki mentioned, they're not able to download certain software. So that involves coordinating with the help desk to download stuff. 

So I think it really depends on your access and what you're trying to test. If you're just trying to test the account settings page, for example, that's something that we would all have access to. And it would take a couple hours to go through that. But if something requires setup, it could take much longer. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah, I understand that. 

VICKI: [? Great. ?] 

ROSE MADSON: Thank you. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Oh, sure. Yeah. So it takes a little longer the more issues you find, as well? 

VICKI: The documenting is the big thing. The testing is quite straightforward. But then documenting what you found and being able to get the voice output-- because I always add the voice output so I can clarify what the speech output is from the screen reader, so they can see, OK, that's not what it should be saying. 

ROSE MADSON: That makes perfect sense to me. But again, doing all of that work is time consuming. So again, it goes back to resources, so. 

VICKI: Yeah. Yes. 

ROSE MADSON: And I have more than one hat that I wear. So I mean I just am not able to test at that level yet, anyway. Understood. I mean, this is my primary job, so. I mean, I do other things, too. And I have it down pat how-- I always take the time to look at the platform first, get familiar with it, and then go into the testing environment with a screen reader and document. And this is a two-part thing because we have the web-based dashboard. And then we have the Okta verify app on a mobile device. So you're doing multiple rounds of testing on two different devices with two different assistive technologies. 

VICKI: Right. And that's what people don't understand yet, what it takes to really test this. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. 

JOSH: Yeah, I would agree with that. And if you're not manually testing, you can miss some things just having to do with the user experience. On one of the account settings pages it has a personal information form. And if you were to just manually or just do an automated test through the web browser, it would pass on that page. But if you actually go in as a user and go through the experience, there's some glaring issues that is not caught by the automated tests. And it really takes a manual test to get the full experience. 

VICKI: It's quite the process because it is-- the automated testing is helpful to get an idea of what's going on. But to be able to really get a user experience, you need to navigate it with the assistive technology. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: And then there was always those edge cases. If you ever on a page that has a calendar in PeopleSoft and you were using NVDA and Firefox, it reads out as button instead of calendar button. But if you do it in Chrome or if you're using JAWS, everything's fine. 

VICKI: Yeah. And that's why we test with both because all-- the screen readers react to different content differently. So that's why when I do an individual test without Josh, I always do JAWS and NVDA and VoiceOver because they all read the underlying code differently and express it differently, so. 

ROSE MADSON: Sorry, I'm laughing just because this speaks to development in human-centered design. And yeah, because we still haven't answered the question on our campus. To do the testing-- I can run the test. And I can show here's where the errors are, especially if you're using the browser tester for WCAG. 

But I'm not the person that's going to go in and update that code. So there's always still that dynamic right now that we're trying to figure out. Who's going to do what in what applications? 

[INTERPOSING VOICES] 

VICKI: I can't do the code either. I just do the testing and submit my findings. And then it goes to the person. Right now it'll go to our Okta team and to the Okta rep that we work with. And then they'll process the information and do the work, so. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah, we [INAUDIBLE]. I must saying we don't have that process in place yet, for sure. I mean, the idea is there. Yeah. 

JOSH: And for us also, the vendor comes into play, like which vendor we're working with. With certain vendors, if we report an issue, we can also report best practice and how we would suggest them to fix it. And in most times they listen. Not all the vendors were like that. Like Okta, for example, they didn't really follow our suggestion when it came to one of the fixes that they had. But with our other vendor for the online admissions application, they'll follow the code lines that we present to them, so. . 

ROSE MADSON: Interesting. It depends on the relationships and who you're working with. 

ROSE MADSON: Well, I have to say I haven't actually done a report back to a vendor other than to point out things that I feel like were missing on their VPAT or lacking. But to be honest, at this point it feels more like sometimes the pushback of, I've already made this statement, my product's accessible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, we're not there yet. 

Sometimes it just feels like, yeah, I don't know, they have a plan for making things more accessible. But to go through and point out all of the areas, they get crabby. I felt like it was a little bit of a pushback on their part because they didn't want to make any changes yet. But April 2026 is coming. So we'll see what happens with things like that. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Absolutely. Yeah. I had a lot of pushback in the early PeopleSoft and Oracle, just trying to convince them that it was a problem, that they had to fix it. There's a lot of push and pull. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. Well, some of it, I think, is just a learning curve for everybody. I mean, it is technology. And it was written a certain way, especially Okta. How many years ago? Especially if it's older code, fixing it might take longer or might have to decide to revamp it completely, which is a whole project-- that kind of stuff. 

Yeah. No, I just had this one particular vendor that made it really clear that they knew what they were doing. And I did not know what I was talking about. So that was fun. 

JOSH: Oh, yeah, we've experienced that as well. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: For sure. Yeah. I find I get most traction when I call out the specific success criteria they're violating. I know what I'm talking about. I'm not just saying it's not working right-- not just some vague thing. No. It's really is wrong, so. Yeah. 

So speaking of our biggest vendor, so we don't have any updates on any outstanding service requests with Oracle at this point. The ones we've got open, we're just waiting for development to finish the fixes. And so we can take those in and either some patches or feature updates, feature [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah. Great conversation. Thanks, Rose. 

Has anybody had good experiences with certain vendors or better experiences with ones? Just curious. 

VICKI: For me, I think it's just a matter of building that relationship. And I've always been able to express the fact that these are the standards that we expect. And if you don't want to comply to them, then we will find another vendor. But I've always had pretty good relationships with vendors that I've done testing on. Some take longer than others to really establish and gain that trust. But I'm adamant this is what we need from this product. If you can't do it, then OK. 

ROSE MADSON: So how do you guys weigh risk? Because I get that, too. Right now it's like, how do you risk? So for myself, I have a real hard time saying that this product is accessible. Some of the documentation that's getting created as we're creating this tracking sheet of all this work. 

And it's like, yes, it has a VPAT. But I'm not comfortable saying that this product is accessible because I don't believe it is. So you see what I mean? Because it's always a work in progress. And you can look at the VPAT and go, just because they say it supports it, do we know it supports it for sure? We have to go look at it and test it. But there's a lot of-- 

JOSH: Right. And there's the supports with exceptions. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah, yeah. But what does that mean? Well, where does it not-- where's the exception? Because to me, that's what I want to go test this. But yeah, I don't know. It's going to be interesting as the year goes forward and we start to see more people working in this realm, I feel like, across the colleges. 

VICKI: Well, that's the thing about VPAT. You can't necessarily trust them. I mean, some vendors do a better job documenting the WCAG issues and/or problems. But a lot of times it's not even anybody trained in doing the VPAT that's creating it. So I had a VPAT the other day that was-- they completely copied everything from the WCAG statement and put it in the remarks and explanations. 

And I'm like, well, what good does that do? You're not telling me anything about your product. But I always use the VPAT as a good standard of what to look for. And if certain things are missing, then I will present that to the vendor and have more conversations. But it's the testing that really makes the difference. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. And I just wanted to say that I have some good relationships with some of our vendors that are definitely speaking to the comment in the chat daily. Yeah, some of it is the newer vendors, especially web-based software. They're more likely to be understanding what we're talking about, what we're trying to do or to say, yes, we have a path forward with accessibility. It's on our development path. We're going to be improving these areas by this date of next year kind of stuff. 

Those are the ones that I feel like are the better ones to go forward with than the ones that just say, yeah, I already told you it's accessible. It's in my statement-- deal with it. 

VICKI: I mean, really, to [? Daley's ?] comment, it's accurate. You can't waste your time on vendors that aren't going to do the work. And if they're not going to do the work, then you need to find something else. 

ROSE MADSON: It's not a sustainable product. 

VICKI: No. And if they're not willing to work with you to have this roadmap of fixes, then it's not worth wasting your time with that company. And you're paying for something that could be a risk. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah, with those new products, every company wants to say theirs is the best and it's the most accessible. But I like to actually click around and see it for myself. They say correct. 

ROSE MADSON: Well, we can request. I request a demo to show the accessible features, that It is accessible, which I was successful with one company and then not successful with that request with another company, which I thought was interesting. So actually, since we're talking about this, how do you guys feel about the NDA, having to sign an NDA to get a copy of a VPAT? 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Don't like that. 

JOSH: I think we've had to do it. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah, I think we've had. 

ROSE MADSON: We have to. Otherwise, you can't even see the VPAT, right? 

JOSH: Yeah. 

VICKI: I thought that VPATs were a public document. And so what are they trying to hide? And that's my first thought, is why do I have to sign this if this is a public document, and it doesn't have anything in it that's going to compromise your product except for an accessibility issue? So I don't agree that you should have to sign an NDA. I feel like they're trying to hide something. 

ROSE MADSON: This was on a really big product that was purchased-- let's see. What is it? Element451? I think is the name of it-- most recently was the one. And there's more. I've seen more where it's part of the [INAUDIBLE] for you to get access to their data, because now we're also checking not just for VPAT. But we're also checking for data security and data protection. So both of those things fall under that category. And then you have to sign that to get access to their library of documents. 

And I've had some come in actually with my name stamped on them that I signed the NDA to view that document. And I think it has to do with proprietary legal-- what is-- I'm not really good at remembering legal terminology. But it had to do with me about, they're basically saying this is proprietary information to their software. And by sharing this out with other people, I'm breaking that NDA because it's there. It's specifically about their product and protecting their internal-- what's the right word I want to say? 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Intellectual property. 

ROSE MADSON: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I found that interesting. And I still haven't had this conversation yet with our purchasing because I know we do have on our campus the same type. We have mixed feelings about it because I do feel like I have no choice but to sign in to even see it. 

But yeah, then I wonder, what am I really signing? Does that mean that I can't go to another college in the 34 colleges and say, hey, did you see this VPAT? How do you feel about the-- kind of thing. Is that means, I can't talk about their product fails with accessibility? I don't know. 

And to your point, Vicki, not all companies request or require it. But the newer ones seem to be-- the more web-based seem to, and software as a service seem to. 

WOMAN: They also list exceptions in the VPAT, if it doesn't conform to something. At least in the PeopleSoft one they do. 

ROSE MADSON: Right. So that could be a legal-- admitting legally that they knew it was wrong and to see if does that have legal implications, probably, I think. 

WOMAN: Yes. 

ROSE MADSON: Absolutely. Yeah. 

JOSH: It's their loophole. 

ROSE MADSON: Yeah. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yes, I specifically called out how I don't want supports with exceptions. I just want supports. Please fix the exceptions. 

WOMAN: Yeah, it's like the product was tested for this, this, this. And these are the exceptions. Like that-- the list. So somebody can't sue them then. 

CHRISTOPHER SORAN: Yeah, I appreciate the conversation-- all stuff we're facing together, so. Oh, too fast. Sorry about that. Yeah, so if there's anything you want to chat on next month, just let me know-- get it on the agenda. We've got our accessibility web page. That's pretty useful. And then we've got our meeting same time, same place next month. Yeah. 

Appreciate everybody's time, the conversation. And everybody has a nice week. 

VICKI: Thank you, Christopher. 

ROSE MADSON: Thank you. You, too. 

WOMAN: Thank you. 

JOSH: Bye, all. Thanks. 

VICKI: Bye.