REALTIME FILE

SBCTC
August ctcLink Accessibility Open Forum
 Tuesday, August 10, 2021
2:00 P.M. Eastern

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>> Good morning, Christopher.
>> Good morning.
>> So Monica, I had no idea Carley presented last week.  She's like  doesn't tell me those things.  I was so proud of her, though. 

>> Monica: Did an amazing job.  It was great.
>> She's an amazing gal.
>> Monica: Yeah.  Yeah.  I am wanting to see if I can have access to the recording, because I think a lot of developers would find it helpful.  Because she talked about semantic HTML and accessibility and she just brings it down to a space where even folks who are not developers like myself can still get a lot out of the conversation and have an idea if I am looking  you know, at code, like have an idea what I am looking for.  So it was really nice.
>> I'm so glad it was helpful.  She sent me the PowerPoint.  So I am going to take a look at the PowerPoint and see.  But  it was great, because I presented twice to Building Bridges and now she's doing it and passing the baton. 

>> Monica: That's awesome. 

>> Chris: Monica, can I get presentation rights so I can share the slides?  Or were you going to share them?
>> Monica: Yeah.  I just  I thought I had that changed in my settings, but apparently I don't.  So I believe I just gave screen share access.  Is it working for you? 

>> Chris: Let's see.  Do you see the slides?
>> Monica: Sure do.  Looks good, Chris.
>> Chris: Thanks.
>> Monica: Are you hosting this meeting with me or is Sandy coming?
>> Chris: Sandy's still coming.  I'm just doing most of the talking. 

>> Monica: Good morning, sandy.  Welcome. 
>> Sandy: Good morning, everybody.  It's Sandy.  How are y'all?  Y'all?  Where did that come from?
>> Monica: I'm doing well.  People are still coming into the Zoom room and getting settled.  I thought we would give folks another minute or two.  And then I will do some kind of housekeeping announcements about captioning and hand it over to you and Chris. 

>> Monica: All righty.  Good morning, everyone.  This is Monica Olsson from the state board.  It's now 11:00 on the dot, I believe.  So we will go ahead and start our meeting.  Welcome to the August ctcLink Accessibility Open Forum.

Before I hand it over to my colleagues in I.T., sandy and Chris, I do want to let everyone know that we have a professional CART transcriber with us here today so if you need captions for access, please click the CC button on the bottom of your Zoom screen to enable that. 

Feel free to message me privately in chat if you need additional access assistance. 

We are scheduled for an hour today.  I ask that people do their best to keep their microphones muted when not speaking.  And then please unmute yourself when you have a question or comment to share. 

I will do my best to help moderate since I know when folks are speaking and presenting that can be a little hard to do both. 

And the other thing I would like to encourage folks to do during this meeting is, before you mute yourself, please introduce your name and which institution you are from and that helps everyone just keep track of who is talking throughout our conversation today in case someone can't access the name on the screen. 

Ok.  I think that's everything I wanted to share up front.  So thank you for being here.  And with that, I am going to hand it over to Sandy. 

>> Sandy: Thank you, Monica.  Hi, everybody.  This is Sandy Main at the state board office.  I am so glad you are all here and I'm having lighting issues in my room again, as usual. 

So I have Christopher Soran's team here and he's running the slide deck for us, which I think is great. 

So Christopher, would you mind advancing to the next one so we can see the agenda. 

Thank you.  So we do actually have a very packed topics or agendas that we want to go through, agenda items.  So I am going to really just kind of turn it over to Christopher and let him go through and talk about some of the current activities that's going on.  The majority of the work does come out of his team. 

And that's our application support section of the application services group.  They are the primary developers, engineers, that do the technical support for ctcLink.  We will have him do an update and he will go ahead and have a conversation about how process  or what the process is when we have accessibility issues. 

So there's kind of a threepronged or fourpronged approach but anyway, he will go through that.  I think he did an amazing job discussing that, so it's going to be a really good conversation. 

We will try to allow time at the end for questions and answers from the group, which I think is such a great way to interact and let's, you know, kind of get those things and it gives us a chance to kind of come back and always either improve our process or find answers for you. 

And we will go into college sharing.  We did have one agenda request that came in this time.  We believe we answered it offline but if we have time, I would like to open it up for discussion and that actually has to do with mobile and high point  so, if anybody has anything new like Monica said, she's monitoring chat.  So please feel free to put in some ideas that you want to get covered, either at this meeting or the next meeting. 

We will make sure we get those addressed.  All right.  So I am going to turn it over to Christopher and have him go have some fun with this stuff.  Thank you, Christopher. 
>> Chris: Good morning, everyone.  I'm Christopher Soran with the state board.  Application support manager and have the privilege of working with all the developers here in the application support team.  So since  some of the activities we are working on right now, the OAAP, the vendor has fixed most of the issues and Josh, could you give us a little more detail on that one? 

>> Josh: Hi, this is Josh Giha from the state board.  So, talking to Castech is the vendor for the online admissions application portal which we call OAAP.  And the most recent set of updates that we will be going into production, they have addressed not necessarily some showstoppers, but improved on some labels with the  it wasn't announcing when it was expanding or collapsed, they have improved that, as well as the account sign-out popout.  That they have improved some functionality with that, as well.  And then they have also addressed a couple issues that Level Access had brought to them.  A few months ago.  But they were more systematic and more to how their mean stack was developed so they had to find out some  dig deep and to address some of those issues.  And they are hoping to have those developed in front of their VPAT that they are working on.  That's about it for the update.
>> Sandy: Christopher, can I jump in?  This is Sandy Main.  Regarding the VPAT from Castech on the online applications portal, many of you may know it's really hard to find thirdparty vendors that have the capacity to do the VPAT.  So they are really trying to get a third party to do that work with them. 

So it's taken a lot longer.  The last time I talked to him, he's reached out to two or three different areas. 

They are trying to engage with Level Access to do that.  So just wanted to let you guys know that it is very important to Castech, who the vendor is, to get a good VPAT.  And it's taken a lot longer than we had hoped and they had hoped, but they are actively working on it. 

Thanks for letting me interrupt. 

>> Chris: Sounds good.  This is Christopher again from the state board, everybody.  So we are continuing our regular meetings with Oracle to discuss the  
>> This is Andrea, how may I help you? 
>> Chris: Andrea, sounds like you are  there you go.  Sounds good.  So we are continuing those meetings.  One thing of note since last, we had, appreciated Monica and Doug was able to join us in the last call, with Oracle.  We brought in their Vice President of HCM at Oracle came in to give us updates and I have more details on the next slide. 

>> Slight delay.
>> Chris: Looks like another mute.  So another thing we are continuing is the HCM accessibility monthly focus group calls and one of the nice things to know is that we aren't in this alone.  We are in this big boat with a bunch of other people, all the PeopleSoft users across the world, in particular I have a list out here of all the people that are joining us on those calls.  In addition to the state board, Harvard, King County government, commonwealth of Massachusetts, University of Michigan, University of Missouri, Indiana University, and some other companies, as well.  So they are also joining on the calls and expressing concerns around accessibility and ctcLink.  It's nice to know we aren't alone in this. 

And the fact that we even have these monthly forum calls, it didn't exist until just like three months ago.  So  

I'm hopeful of that continued progress on all these fronts. 

So new since last time, Oracle has, for the CS academic advisement report, that's a PDF output report that has readable text, but isn't correctly tagged. 

So you aren't going to get that proper flow or understand the structure of the document if you are using it with a screen reader.  So new since last time, Oracle agreed it's a problem.  They are going to work on a fix and it's coming with CS image 24.  They have requested a PRP.  See if we can get that sooner, but that's sometimes it takes a lot of back and forth in our service requests with oracle.  They ask for business cases, replication steps, trace files, um  sometimes it can take like a month or more of back and forth before they even agree that this is an issue and that they need to fix it.  Always feels like a win when we come to that point and we will be looking to get that in the system as quickly as we can. 

The incorrect tab order for purchase orders, that fix is coming in the financing  41 and to come to the  back to the W2 PDF piece, this has been long in the works, going back and forth with Oracle for a long time.  You can access all the information online.  But when you download that PDF, it's not readable by a screen reader.  It doesn't have the proper tagging structure.  You can read some of the text, but it's not an equivalent experience. 

And for a long time, Oracle wasn't really telling us why.  They were kind of being cagey with us, third party, they weren't able to fix it because of a third party. 

So it turns out that the third party, they finally told us, was R.R. Donnelley who delivers the W2 PDFs to them in a locked inaccessible format.  Russell, the Vice President  last night  he leads those monthly forum calls.  He reached out to R.R. Donnelley.  They have artificial intelligence on their side to get that PDF output as accessible.  So since this slide deck was made, I got a new update.  From that  from Russell, the Vice President of Oracle.  They spoke with them yesterday and they committed to tag PDF to test in Oracle's development process.  They expect that will be within the next week that R. R. Donnelley will get that to Oracle.  They may need to make modifications within PeopleSoft to make sure that output comes as fully accessible with, you know, walk out 21A.A. guidelines, make sure it meets the standards for the output.  This has been a long time trying to get some movement on that W2 PDF for making sure that output is tagged correctly. 

So we are making progress on that front. 
>> Monica: Hey, Chris, this is Monica from the state board.  Can I jump in with a question from the chat? 

Well first, I wanted to just say thank you so much for all the work you and your team are doing and for this update and for inviting, you know, me to join that meeting with Oracle.  I did want to just emphasize for the group that we all felt like we all left that meeting feeling a little bit more hopeful than maybe in previous moments and that the Oracle team was listening to us and Doug Hayman, you know, joined us, as well.  So it was just a great example of collaboration across the aisle of different teams on the state board including a college voice at the table as well.  So thank you. 

The question in the chat is from Debi.  Think her first question is about the other schools and groups that are part of that monthly meeting, you know, Harvard was on the list.  Her question is, are these groups that have already deployed with Oracle?  Or are they using ctcLink or whatever they are calling it live? 
>> Chris: Yes.  They are all years into their deployments.
>> Monica: That's what I thought.
>> Chris: PeopleSoft.
>> Monica: Ok.  The second question she's asking is, she's curious if there are accessibility lessons learned around accessibility that might help with the items Oracle is not addressing? 

So are the groups sharing different accessibility lessons or workarounds during those meetings? 

>> Chris: So  pieces of these meetings are, or big chunks, talking about all the Oracle show something us all the things that are coming in future images or a lot of these things are at the tools level.  So, they are showing us some of the things that are coming in People Tools like A59 has a bunch of promised accessibility services.  A5714 had a bunch  didn't deliver as much as promised, but, we are hopeful that that comes with that A59 that we will get to someday.  And hopefully deliver on the promises. 

And so sometimes it's going through scenarios like where would you expect the cursor to be or the focus to be on this page?  So, they are like this is how we code to standards.  Do you agree this works?  And so there's certainly some back and forth. 

I'm getting some feedback.  Is somebody unmuted? 

[Child crying] 

>> Chris: I'm hearing a lot of background noise.  I think maybe somebody's unmuted.  So, there is not a specifically, to address your question specifically, there's not an accessibility lessons learned document.  It's mostly conversational trying to make progress on these things.  This W2 thing was brought up a couple of times.  And that helped  that's better  that helped make some progress, too.  We were not just the only ones asking about it, having all of these other groups ask Oracle I think put some additional pressure on them to get some movement going. 

So, there's no specific lessons learned document. 

That is shared, that they have made available. 

So, the next piece there, the absence balances and ask absence PRP, so the PeopleSoft release patch set was applied to production on July 20.  Of the so now when you go and check your absence balances it doesn't just tell you that you have 47 hours of what, I don't know.  Of the it tells you this is sick leave.  Vacation.  So  that was great to finally get that through and get that into production. 

So  yay.  And there's also a report time issue.  That is an  that's going to be coming in Image 39. 

Transition to the next slide.  So is there  actually before I move on, was there any questions about where we are at?  With these items?
>> Monica: Chris, this is Monica.  I think you can continue.
>> Chris: Ok, sweet. 

So, I kind of want to talk about our process.  So we kind of have a threepronged process for dealing with accessibility issues. 

And on the slide is a link to details of the slide deck so I wrote out a full text version of everything that I will be mentioning here which is great for review afterwards or if you just are perusing through the slides but also we will be talking about it here.  We have a proactive approach, a reactive approach and a continuous approach.  So I'll start with the proactive piece.  So any time Oracle releases a new image, they have a list of all the bug fixes that come in the image and they tag them as accessibility. 

Now some of the previous images they haven't done a great job with the description piece which we have talked about it with them in their monthly calls, hey can you add more in the fixes in sometimes they just say accessibility fix on this page.  We dig through the code trying to figure out.  Was there a label added?  What happened to make this page more accessible?  So we are checking all of these bug fixes to see if  to see what the changes were, to test to make sure that they are actually fixed.  And, if they aren't fixed then we are going to be opening up a service request with Oracle saying hey, you said it was a fix.  It doesn't look fixed.  We aren't seeing any change on this page.  So it may have been the bug fix was incorrectly tagged or something.  So we are looking through all of those and testing those. 

And as part of that image overview document that's published with each image update, we have a whole accessibility section and we are listing all of the changes that are coming.  So we are testing all of these things.  We are looking ahead.  Before these images ever make it to production, we are looking at them.  And practically make insuring that these bug fixes and these accessibility fixes are fixing what they say they are and that we know what they are. 

As they are coming through. 

We also have a reactive approach.  So where we get a service test ticket saying that there's a particular problem.  And so we are going to investigate that.  We are going to look at the code.  We are going to work with you, maybe, to get some clarification on it. 

And then we are going to  there are a couple of different ways we go about this.  If it's a delivered page, which is something Oracle gave us, we will go back to Oracle and say please fix this.  We open a service request, do back and forth, hopefully get them to agree there's a problem and a fix will be coming in a future image or we will ask for a PeopleSoft release patch set, a PRP or proof of concept, a POC.  We prefer the PRP over a POC but will take a fix whatever way we can get it.  Then we will see if we can get it introduced into a system earlier.  Or if it's something that's a Kinley for, we will work on it ourselves and fix that accessibility issue.  Anything coming out new, we are checking obviously this is more like some old thing that we found.  Again, it was in the system years ago we are updating. 

But mostly we are making sure that Oracle is fixing the problems, because we don't want to break the warranty on the page.  We want them to keep them updated to make sure that everybody has those accessibility fixes. 

So once we get those, into our development, we do that all in our development environment.  We take the fix from Oracle or fix it ourselves in our development environment.  We will test it with NVDA, with Chrome and with Firefox.  Once we have done all of that, we will bring it to our testing environment. 

So our testing team works with our different functional team.  So whether it's CS or finance or HCM, different teams will be involved so we will do some regression testing around that.  Because, we want to make sure that there's no new bug that got introduced  Oracle sometimes likes to introduce new bugs with their bug fixes and then have fixes for their bug fixes.  So we want to make sure it doesn't break anything else and it actually does fix what they said it was going to fix.  And so we will test that with NVDA, JAWS, Firefox, Chrome, we will run the Wave tool bar, make sure there's no contrast issues.  We are really running the gamut on the testing making sure everything's good.  At that point, we will bring it to our quality assurance environment and our testing  so our testing team will then work with whoever reported the issue, the college, and make sure it's fixing the issue that they reported was an issue. 

After all of that testing is done, if anything needs to be fixed again, we will bring it back to redevelopment, bring the fix up all the way through this process again.  But if everything's working, everything's good, once it comes to the QA environment, then we will bring it into production.  There's been lots of thorough testing done to make sure it doesn't break anything, it's fixing what it should whether it be through Oracle or the custom fix that we might be doing.  Most of these are stuff that's Oracle's delivered.  And so this is the same process for any fix that we work through.  Any code changes that we are doing in the system for all the other tickets that we are working, as well as the accessibility ones.  This is our same process. 

So that's sort of the overview of our reactive process.  And maybe we, through this testing, find some other issue that we will open another Oracle SR on.  So our engineers are also looking at that. 

And, there's also the continuous piece.  So, you know, we continue to meet with Oracle monthly where I meet with them and our  as well.  We are talking about where the status is on all of these service requests we have going.  What information do they need from us?  Where are they at with it?  Is it with the development team?  Do we have a fix coming?  As we are talking through all of those, to make sure there's no miscommunication and we are continuing to make as quick progress as we can.  We will bring in other people like when we talked about the W2 PDF.  As well as our monthly HDM folk calves.  That's that continuous piece where we are learning about what's coming.  We are discussing with all the other PeopleSoft users as well as directly with Oracle.  We are tackling this in three different ways.  Please continue to let us no he if you come across any issues in the system that are accessibility related and we will tackle it. 

PeopleSoft's a big system.  Not omnipotent.  We do our very best to fix everything as quickly as possible.  But if there was something you caught, that you saw, let us know.  We will work on it. 

 
So I'll head to the next slide.  All right.
So is there any questions on this piece?  Kind of how all the different ways we worked through this?  Ok. 

>> Monica: Chris, this is Monica.  Thank you for taking the time to go in greater detail about the process that your team and colleagues use to look at accessibility and test fixes and communicate with Oracle.  I think that this is the, um, really helpful and perhaps the most amount of detail that folks have received in a while.  And so it helps us kind of paint that picture more completely of the behindthescenes work. 

>> Chris: That's great.  Thanks. 

>> Sandy: This is Sandy.  I would like to remind everybody that all of the information that Christopher covered is available at the end of the slide like he mentioned.  More of a writeup, all the different areas.  And it's  again, it's the same process we used for the release schedule and everything.  This is no different.  We try and keep it standardized and use the same measures in testing.  Additional testing.  But the same process.  Makes it easier to get things through all the different environments.  So, Christopher you did an amazing job.  Thank you for that work. 

>> Chris: Thanks, Sandy.  I want to make sure everyone has an equitable experience in the system.  It's important to me personally as well as everybody on the state board.
>> Sandy: We continue every time, but as you say, Oracle likes to fix a bug with a bug and it isn't as clean as we would hope to, but I think they are really trying to get better at it.  And they are making the effort.  I mean you just see a dramatic change in their way of doing things, I think, since you know from a year ago, you know.  They are more open and they are listening more.  So that's amazing that they have changed their  changed the way they do business.  Thank you. 

All right.  So  this page is on college feedback.  So, Amy at Shoreline did ask about an accessibility comparison between HCX and the full ctcLink.  There's a little bit more to her request and it had to do with the configuration of highpoint mobile HCX.  And so we addressed those issues with her offline, but I wanted to leave this topic out there and talk a little bit about it.  But also to see if there was any questions from the group. 

So it's kind of difficult to really compare HCX to full ctcLink because the reason why we went, or went forward with mobile high point, or highpoint mobile, sorry, got it backwards, was because it was a better user experience.  It's not exactly a onetoone comparison.  CtcLink is probably a little harder or a lot harder for some people to navigate whereas HCX is a better user experience.  But HCX does address the accessibility.  Of the I'm going to say it's not a hundred percent.  I don't think anybody  it's a hello world web page, you have accessibility issues and HCX, or high point does release fixes and we are continuously monitoring and will apply any modifications they make or enhancements they make. 

So one to one, there really isn't a way we can do a comparison on accessibility.  CtcLink is accessible in a lot of ways and so is HCX.  So  that it's the best we can do.  But I wanted to kind of bring that up, see if anybody had any questions.
>> Josh: This is Josh from the state board.  If I can ask you  I want to touch on that and add, um, my experience with testing ctcLink and High point or HCX.  I would say that the biggest difference as far as accessibility goes is HCX is more consistent.  We found that there are some differences in user experiences whether you are using JAWS in Chrome or in Firefox.  There's a consistent difference between NVDA in JAWS and how you are able to get more functionality out of JAWS inside of Chrome than you are with NVDA across both browsers. 

So, I would say that HCX kind of eliminates that difference. 

It makes the user experience consistent among both browsers and among the different screen reader software.  And it also eliminates the need to turn on the screen reader mode.  So, we found that some of the useability issues with screen readers are eliminated in ctcLink when you turn on screen reader mode.  But it can actually cause some visual issues if you turn on screen reader mode while using High point.  It changes labels, I noticed, and this was over just the past week, actually.  I found this out.  So  um  I am still digging into it.  Just getting back  coming back from vacation.  But those are some of the things I did notice as far as HCX and accessibility with ctcLink. 

Yes, screen readers do work  this is answering Debi's question.  She's asking for clarification if screen readers work better in HCX?  Yes.  JAWS and NVDA work better in HCX across all browsers. 

>> Monica: This is Monica from the state board.  Josh, thank you.  I just wanted to quickly add that a couple weeks ago on the 22nd of July, another colleague, Drake, at the state board, gave a twohour training live in Zoom to folks interested across the system on key functions inside HCX mobile.  It was really well done, very useful.  We had almost 100 people attend.  And, that recording is available now via youtube link and I have sent that out to the councils and Listservs that I'm a part of and I also shared that with Josh and Drake so that they can continue to share that prerecorded training as well to others who might want to review those materials.  And that's my comment. 

>> Sandy: This is sandy at the state board.  Josh, thank you so much.  Because my mind was focusing on like a onetoone kind of pagetopage that it's really hard.  But that different look at it is why we have these forums and have these kind of conversations.  So thank you. 

So, if we go to the next one, the next slide, Christopher.  So that was the one submission that came in through the online submission form.  So I encourage people to continue to do that.  And then also what it does is allows us to, you know, do some research so we can have really good answers.  Some responses for you when we do meet.  But I would like to open this up, if you are good with that, Monica, to have colleges kind of if they have questions, because the rest is the standard stuff in our slides.  So this is where we will just turn it over to the group and see if they have any questions. 

>> Sandy: This is sandy.  Don't be shy.  [Laughter] 

Oh, good, Marc.  Marc, the URL, if you go to the ctcLink accessibility web page, but we can get you the direct link to that.  Whoever posts it first is the winner today. 

I give up because I know the rest of the team is super fast getting links out there than I am. 

Monica wins. 

>> Monica: This is Monica from the state board.  I know sometimes when there's a lot of content and information, it takes people time to chew on it and contemplate before, you know, what you want to ask.  So, it's ok if we don't end up having followup questions right now during today's meeting and certainly if we do, we've got the time.  But as you continue to soak in this information, and/or review the slide deck that's up online, if you find yourself having additional questions or comments, certainly you can always, you know, reach out to me directly, but the submissions form via the link I put in the chat, would be a great place to share followup questions or comments.  That we can respond to. 

>> Monica: This is Monica again from the state board.  So I don't want to assume that there aren't questions out there, but I am going to take the silence as a hint that maybe people are still just thinking about what they heard today.  So in conclusion  oh,  I see a question in the chat from Marisa.  Can you go over the areas that are more accessible in screen reader mode? 

>> Josh: This is Josh from the state board.  To answer that question, so  not really in the areas that the students see the studentfacing parts of ctcLink.  It's more so in the staff pages where you have the classic pages.  I don't know what your position is at your institution, but if you have been able to see a difference in the layout between different interfaces where one looks a bit new, or more up to date, and one kind of has an older looking feel, that would be the classic page. 

And in those areas is where the screen reader mode has the most effect on it.  And the reason given to us by Oracle was before fluid was created, which is like their responsive design, they did all of their accessibility work separately from their other pages.  So that's why there is a screen reader mode.  And that screen reader mode, I guess, has been developed over the last 20 years.  And so they haven�t ported all of that functionality into what they call the fluid design.  And so the fluid design is mostly  is what their most publicfacing pages have been ported over to.  And, we have been told that there isn't a huge push to push over any remaining classic pages into fluid.  We don't know if this is going to continue but when we do run across accessibility issues on a classic page with screen reader mode turned on, we do report those and those fixes are continually being made and pushed through our PUM and image updates.
>> Padjama: This is Padma.  Most of the user facing pages are fluid.  And that is the promise of Oracle that anything that is  employs our services, managers, selfservice, facing that  that is screen reader friendly and accessible and the pages that are less accessible are the second pages and admin pages which are not used by frontend users frequently.  But, they are working on making them more accessible. 

There is something called a Classic Plus, which is tools deliver a different kind of paradigm where the classic pages can be made more accessible and useable by just changing the template from the setup in the system. 

So they are actively working on it.  And also regarding ideas based on Monica and Sandy was asking for, Oracle actually has a place for ideas where if you  if there are some ideas that you suggested for the future accessibility ctcLink, we can actually create those ideas with Oracle considers for enhancements.  By taking votes from different customers.  So if you suggested some idea and if we post that on Oracle's ideas page and other customers can also vote on it, and if most of the customers want that, then Oracle takes it up for enhancing their software. 

>> Josh: This is Josh from the state board.  If you are looking for an example of a classic page that was not really as accessible and then the updated version of that page, if you are in financial aid staff, the financial aid iCert pages from '19 and '20 compared to '21, there's a difference in being able to keyboard navigate and some of them are on deeper pages that you have to select a link on within the iCert component. 

>> Monica: This is  oh, go ahead. 
>> Chris: I was just going to address a question in the chat.  Go ahead.
>> Monica: Nope.  You go ahead.  That's what I was going to draw our attention to next.  So I defer to you.
>> Chris: Sounds great.  So Debi's question is that if some of the issues can't be fixed will the development of the work around training  be to each college, is there  workable  accessed in the reference center?  So the only issue that I ran across in Oracle being sticky on was the W2 PDFs.  I didn't take no for an answer.  I pushed on that one.  We got some movement.  It wasn't just me.  It was a team effort.  But so there hasn't been an issue yet that we have run across where Oracle said no, we won't fix it.  So I am not aware of an issue that can't be fixed. 

And if you are aware of something, then we will work on it.  We will investigate it. 

>> Padjama: This is Padma again.  In our customer focus group meeting, I brought to the notice some classic pages that I know that our users are using extensively.  So though they say that classic pages are not accessible  mentioned that this is what is used by most of our user base, they said that I can open  they will consider for fluidizing that  fluidizing  making it more accessible and nice looking.  Easy to navigate.  Yeah.

So what Christopher said, we don't take no for answer. 

>> Monica: Thanks, Padjama.  This is Monica from the state board.  Followup question from Marisa.  Have timesheet pages been fixed for accessibility?
>> Padjama: This is Padma.  Yeah, excellent, this is the page I mentioned to them.  The time sheet is important to us, a classic page, and most of our users love to use it.  And though you are telling us that classic pages cannot be fixed, we want this to be used  they said there are alternative versions of fluid pages available.  I said yes, but they are scattered and in time sheet, all information is on the one page.  So, it is the most convenient.  So  they said open  and we will consider it.  So we will be following up on that and hopefully  I don't know the timeline, but it  they will take that up.  It's my hope.  For sure. 

>> Chris: There's also a bug related to the comments on the report time page and that bug is  the bug fix is slated to come in HCM image 39. 
>> Monica: This is Monica from the state board.  Think there's  this is all really great information but I also think maybe folks are getting a little confused because some of the terminology is new. 

So Chris, maybe could you take a step back and redefine the difference between a classic page and what the issue is regarding a classic page versus the newer I think responsive designs pages that Josh was beginning to give that clarification.  I am just seeing some followup questions in the chat that let me know there is still some confusion going on. 

>> Padjama: This is Padma.  I can take this question.  So classic pages are the original tools, original pages that were developed many, many years ago.  We used to call it Adam and Eve time pages.  So they were based on the technology of the time.  That couldn't really handle many of the new things that we currently use.  So  for example labels.  Labels or the way the tab order works or the alternate way of presenting the page for somebody who is using a screen reader.  These kind of things were not available at that time so those old pages are called "classic pages" and when the tools developed and the tools made improvisation  tools is the background platform on which development is done.  So that was upgraded and then ever since after that, whichever pages were developed after that, they could use the technology of using various labels that are suitable for screen reader users or making adjustments to the pages so they are better for the screen reader users, changing colors, styles, which were not available in the old pages.  They are now available.  So those pages which they are called fluid pages, but the old pages, there are so many of old setup admin pages are there because PeopleSoft is a vast application.  If you see that how it spans through finance, campus, it is a huge application.  So  there are many pages that are still classic.  But most of the user frontfacing pages, they develop those on the latest platform and that is what those redeveloped and the new ones are called fluid and the very old ones are called classic. 

>> Sandy: So this is Sandy at the state board.  I'm reading Debi's comment about DG6.  They will not have access to classic since you aren't live yet.  You are right classic is the older way they delivered pages.  And then fluid is the new format.  But they are mixed together within PeopleSoft.  So in ctcLink, selfservice is predominantly fluid based.  So those are the pages that are most highly accessed by people so that's where the concentration on upgrades are happening from Oracle.  Classic pages are more of the administrative functions that happen behind the scenes.  They have a smaller base of users, but so  those haven't been updated by Oracle.  So you will  DG6 will have both, some classic looking pages depending on your job on campus, and they will also have a lot of fluid per selfservice.  I hope that helped explain the difference.  So they didn't just flip the switch.  They are doing kind of page by page improvements. 

In PeopleSoft. 

>> Monica: Thanks, Sandy.  This is Monica.  And so to be clear, the circling back to Marisa's question about timesheet approval, timesheet approvals are on a classic page.  Is that correct?  Therefore accessibility remediation is a little bit more complex.  Is that what I'm hearing? 

>> Padjama: Yes, this is Padma.  Yes.  Timesheet page is a classic page.  It's an old page.  It is not  they improvised it but they did it in such a way that they took small, small pieces and presented it as separate pages.  Whereas what we would like to see is one page that has all the functionality in it.  So we are going to request that. 

Yeah.  Does that answer the question, Monica? 
>> Monica: Padma, this is Monica.  Thank you.  Yeah, that helps me understand a little bit better and I hope that helps answer others' questions, as well.  So thank you, Padma.
>> Padjama: Thanks. 

>> Chris: So summarize whether it's a classic page or fluid page, we are still going to ask for an accessibility fix.  So  wherever there's a problem, we are going to work on it. 

Work with Oracle. 
>> Monica: This is Monica from the state board.  Thanks, Chris.  So I think we are at a good place to wrap up and end our meeting.  Thank you, everyone, for joining us today.  We really appreciate your participation and I am grateful to Padma, Josh, Sandy and Chris for providing such good information and updates and for working so hard on improving accessibility and user experience and for including me, too, in your journey.  And so I look forward to continuing to partner with you and provide policy support wherever I can.  And thank you to our colleges for working with us and communicating with us and letting us know when you have questions or concerns or when you find things are not working.  We really appreciate that feedback and need that feedback. 

So our next accessibility open forum is scheduled for September 14, same time.  11 a.m. to noon.  And with that, I am going to say goodbye and end our meeting.